Sandy3D, pattented?
March 11th, 2010 by kiroukou :: en :: RSS 2.0Sometimes I just feel like stupid.
Here is my very first email of the day (1AM, yes, I should be sleeping…)
Basically it means that there’s a SANDDE™ product related to 3D drawing associated to a patent.
Now is my question, how the hell is that related to our small opensource project? We do not market anything here .. Sandy3D isn’t even a trade. We ask for people to make some donations and in the past 5 years, only 25 people did considered to do so. Can we name this market?
As most of you might know, the reason of that name is extremely simple “San” “Di” would be how the word “3D” is pronounced in Chinese language from my very modest knowledge. Could them patent such a thing?
What would happen if I remove the 3D attached to Sandy, and make the project named “Sandy, an opensource 3D API for Flash”?
Anyhow, I do not even hear SANDDE™ be pronounced like Sandy3D… Moreover our API does not define a method to draw 3D …
I just feel stupid right now, not being able to know where my rights stop. Why should I bother taking any kind of risk for a non-commercial project? But in the same time, why should I consider changing the project name (and identity) with so few good reasons.
If you have an opinion or advice, please comment, I’ll read it seriously.
World is crazy…..
I feel sorry, the world is really crazy
It looks like the patent only holds authority in France. So there’s no point in changing your U.S. offerings regardless of what happens.
I tried to find that patent through a web search, and I found nothing. It would probably be written in French though anyway, so there’s no way I could know if the patent contains anything that is material to your operation.
It also sounds like this is not a patent problem, but a trademark problem. You can’t patent a name nor a product. And the name “Sandy” is a common name so it can’t even be trademarked.
I would suggest that you respond asking them what specifically it is that they are accusing you of. The implication is that they are accusing you of infringing on a patent, but it doesn’t even call you out for that. Right now, it sounds like they are just saying “Hey, your name is Sandy and our name is Sandy too, so you better change your name.” That is not a valid legal call-to-action.
If the email came from a lawyer, ask him to cite the specific legislation that you are infringing on. If he can’t do that then he can’t take legal action.
And by the way, if that email did not come from a “@imax.com” email address then it’s probably somebody just messing with you.
Just don’t give up too quickly. Your brand holds value and you should attempt to defend that value.
@Harry, not to surprise you, but Thomas is french dude, and sandy3d was created in France.
@Thomas, as far as I see, “sandy” != “sandde” so I would just tell them to fuck off. Politely.
I agree. Tell them to go f*ck themselves. SANDDE != Sandy3D.
Dear Sirs … my foot. One day, brain transplants would be cheap and we could rid the world of such nonsense.
You should definitely comply, change the name of your engine to Sandde3D
either way that goes, it’d be *great* marketing for your engine, everyone loves a david vs goliath story, especially if david is a smartass
Thank you all for your comments !
The first thing I did was to note the difference in the name, and to point that we did not market anything.
I finally ask (not so politely) what’s their real goal behind this request.
The email was an @imax one, so I think they were serious when sending the email, and they have a real stereoscopic technology behind (which is way different than rasterising 3D…)
Now the surprising thing to me is that, ok, I created that project, and it is hosted in France. But except the domain name, I do not own anything specifically. There’s no product, no company behind, no trade with Sandy3D name…
Let’s see how it goes now
This is not a patent issue, so ignore that part. This is a trademark issue. Read up on trademark law. Companies are required to defend their trademarks or risk losing them. They’re being agressive because they have to be. Trademark issues extend to pronunciation (Microsoft vs Mike Rowe Soft). That’s about the extent of my knowledge on the issue – if you need more, talk to a lawyer.
yeeeah! SANDDE != Sandy3D. fuck them!
this is… absurd… and pointless (names don’t, match, techs don’t match…)
if there’s anything I can do (not sure what though…), let me know.
courage Thomas!
I think the techniques won’t defeat the Commercials.
You’d better get some advice from some guys professional, eg:layer, trade register related…
hmm sounds to me like they’re under the mistaken assumption that a trademark is a patent. perhaps point out that difference to them.
If they’re thinking they can patent 3D, they’re in for a world of hurt.
*facepalm*
This is total and utter bullshit. These guys are not even getting the laws right, so they can’t even afford to be advised by a lawyer. They are talking about violation of trademark laws. Snady3d and sandde is a far cry form each other. The best you can do is totally ignore them and not waste your brain energy on these morons. They are just trolls. Or it might be a marketing stunt, they might be looking for free publicity.
ciao,
Mark
This is totally ridiculous! But I’d say that it would be wise to gain some legal advice.
I think the Flash community will support you in fighting back, so keep us all informed!
If this escalates, I’ll commit to a donation, so you can pay your lawyers!
Thank you all
Good to see some support!
@Mark, yes free publicity is something I was thinking as well. Not sure IMax need some publicity on a small flash3D blog though…
@Paul, I appreciate your consideration
I’m waiting their answer now, be sure that I’ll keep you informed.
Trademarks are only as strong as they are well known in the region they’re being defended in. Who has heard of SANDDE? No one. I would posit that Sandy3D is better known internationally. They refer to their French patent in order to divert attention from a weak trademark. Intimidation basically. The patent has nothing to do with this.
It’s also worth noting that SANDDE isn’t even a registered trademark. Anyone can put “TM” after their brand. This is worthless unless you can prove public awareness of your trademark.
My final point about trademarks is that infringments are only valid in competing industries. See Apple Records vs Apple Computers. Only became an issue when Apple started selling music. Are Sandy3D and IMAX in the same industry? No.
Yes, Jim kindly did some research and found this:
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=75414925
As we can see here, the current status is Abandoned…
Meanwhile, I do not have any news from them in regards to my emails..
I sent you an email with all the details
there are basicaly a bunch of joke and you can tell’em to fuck off
they have no trademark whatsoever
no case, period.
Seems that some comments just can’t be posted… not sure why, so sorry guys.
Here are the jim words,
And Zwetan ones:
Thank you guys
SANDDE is not a registered trademark in UE (try to search here: http://oami.europa.eu/CTMOnline/RequestManager/en_SearchBasic_NoReg) and it seems that is not a registered trademark also in USA (like kiroukou wrote). Nor it’s a worldwide registered mark (search here: http://www.wipo.int/romarin/)
So – basically – it seems that SANDDE is not copyrighted and, as someone else wrote, you can use TM on your brand, but not ® if you haven’t registered your mark. I’ve registered one last year here in Italy and I know how it works.
Perhaps it’s a stupid joke. Or they’ve tried to intimidate you. Why? I really don’t know.
Just the last thing: even if you have a registered trademark you can use it against the others only in classes you have registered the product for. In fact only in these cases, like Rob says, you have competing products/industries.
I have to agree with Swetan. You may consider being polite though
not to get more trouble than you need. I have the feeling that they are just trying to scare you to change the Sandy3D name for their convenience. Ridiculous!
I can see no reason for you to do so.
Be strong and stand tall
Funny. The same thing happened in the early days of Papervision3D. It was essentially a cease and decist by Panavision. Admittedly, the logo Carlos then had made for the project, was maybe a little similar to the Panavision logo.
They have to protect their copyright, even to small, harmless, non profit, opensource groups, because if they wouldn’t, technically, they would open up the floodgates for anyone to start using their brand names. It’s just the way that works.
That being said, given the time Sandy has been around, the name and pronounciation difference, as well as the fact the products have different appliances and that the name San-Dy would imply something with 3D, I would say, stick to your name. Wait it out. If they truly send big hat lawyers, it might be time to start considering your options.
this is ridiculous! sandy != sandde
I think they are just pissed about your domain having better page rank:
http://xs.to/image-5A69_4B99170B.jpg
Also, when will Adobe come for your soul? They fucked flashden (and recently flashsurf, too).
I also make some 3D computer stuff… Do I have to change my name too? Or should I sue both Sandy and SANDDE? I can, because I born in 1988, earlier than the two
Makc,
I think that may be the main cause…
They’re frustrated not being in the top resutl
Mouahhahaa
Losers…
Weird stuff. I know no law but I think they can’t do much. In Turkey, comedy shows usually make fun of commercial products/firm names just by changing/adding/subtracting a letter and nobody sues them. And they are the exact same kind of product. I believe it should be similar around the world. So Sandy3D and that other thing, whateveritsnameis, shouldn’t be related.
Any progress about it?
Hello guys,
thank you a lot for giving me your feedback and experience!
I’m quite disappointed to not having any answer from them since my emails (I sent 2).
Now I think I just have to wait until I finally forget that stupid story, unless…
Hey there,
Roommate emailed me this. I assume your in the U.S.
I know some IP law (I am not a lawyer/just graduated law school/love programming and the internet).
It has been a while, but…
It appears that they only want you to change the name of the program. They are not preventing you from making/distributing the actual program. That is good.
The Trademark application in the US was abandoned. For “Sandde” to be protected in the US the word/mark must have “secondary meaning.” It would require the “TM” holder (Imax?) going to court/pto to prove that the word “Sandde” is associated with its company in a wide community of consumers. If no one really associates “Sandde” with the “TM” holder, then “Sandde” is not a trademark and should not have been sold as part of a package of products to Imax.
Highly unlikely,but it may be a generic mark (like “escalator”) and unprotected under US Law.
The purpose of a trademark is to link a good to a specific producer.
If there is a “secondary meaning,” then a court would apply a test to determine if there is “likelihood of confusion” between your TM/Product and their TM/Product. This is to prevent consumer fraud/free riding. The court would likely consider the similarity between your product markets, the length of time you and the other have been using the marks, the sight/sound/meaning of the marks, geographic areas the marks were used, etc (some courts review four factors-some may use up to 8 or more).
If you really want to keep the name, file an application for your “Sandy” product in your State and with the PTO and see how it goes. You may also have a wider community of users associating your product with “Sandy” than they do. You could have the necessary “secondary meaning” for your own trademark protection.
If they aren’t really “using” the mark, never established a large enough community of users to create secondary meaning, and even abandoned their application in front of the PTO, why should you be prevented from using a slightly similar word for your product? It should come down to whose working harder.
If anyone reading this wants to fill in some gaps, correct my errors, etc, please do. It has been awhile.
Good Luck
Tardemark Sandy3D then Send them back a legal nastygram stating they have to stop using your Trademark.
my initial thoughts are, they don’t have a case and are simply trying to scare you.
I don’t think they are actually concerned with confusion, but are probably more annoyed that when speaking with peers and clients on the phone, when they mention “sandde” they have to then explain that it’s not “sandy” LOL!
I would recommend removing the comments that use vulgarity and retaliative ideas from the comments on this posting. You do not want to give the impression that you are making a decision based on vindictiveness (tit-for-tat, etc.). It may be offensive to receive this note, but this could be (probably is) standard practice for the company, and have no intent to offend anyone.
I would ask the company for more explanation concerning why they feel they have a right to the name. Explain that you cannot find the patent, and explain that there is no overlap in terms of market.
But before this, talk to a patent lawyer about your own trademark/copyright/patent on your product. You local university may have resources available for patent issues.
I think the mention of patents is simply to get your attention so that you “pick the easy path” and just change your name. Honestly, that might be the best depending on how attached to it you are. You can always spread the word about what happened, and in the end end up attracting more people to your newly named project while their brand gets tarnished.
Keep in mind that there are probably a great many patents out there that they violate (software patents are horribly broad). Worse, trolls could write up new patents today that would block them from advancing their product lines. If they shut you down, they risk creating at least a handful of new trolls that would target their products [I think you have my email, let me know if these people ever decide to get aggressive with patents.] Also there are people out there with patents that could enforce them but don’t or at least haven’t zoomed in on that particular company as a target. At some point, FOSS developers targeted for software patent attacks will realize en masse how effective it can be (in our twisted patent systems.. at least in the US and I know that doesn’t apply here as much) to write up patents instead of writing software.
Perhaps patents, but much more likely software patents, should not exist. Any product-producing company that wants to start a patent war is asking for trouble (they would be no match against trolls). Not everyone has the resources of Microsoft, for example, to keep fighting trolls on many fronts. Someone has to defend from anti-competitive abusers the gift to society that is open source ..and this is where friendly “trolls” come in
.
Give trolls (or leeches or vampires) something righteous to fight for.. give them a target worth sucking dry.
My condolences for yet another business attack on free software. Now I know I won’t be visiting IMAX theatres in a long time. Fuck IMAX. They have more to lose from my tickets than they have to win from making Sandy3D change its name. I didn’t even know of SANDDE and Sandy3D before though, so thank IMAX for advertising Sandy3D.
Thanks again to all your reactions.
Indeed, vulgarity isn’t something I consider as valuable, but I can’t consider to filter anything, community is free to express itself, this in in any case my personal opinion engaged.
This is true, that’s what I should do…. if only I got time to spend on this. MY problem is that it took time to manage this, and again repeating myself, I’ve a business to run, babies to rise, and Sandy isn’t part of that business (unfortunately for me).
I can understand this is part of their employees job to send such emails, but what I’m complaining about is that even 3 emails they did not even consider to give me anything (no answer, no information, nothing!).
In addition to this, what I can see is that they lied about their trademark, since to trade has been found in Europe and no valid one in the US…
hope to get some news about that, but hopefully good ones.
I was threatened with a law suit from my homeowners association for putting up a website that basically let the homeowners voice their opinions (usually negative) about the HOA. They said in the letter that what i was doing was misrepresentation, slander, and fraud.
Basically, I sought a lawyer ( free consultation
) and the issue was, my site said the name of my complex, so what I did was put disclaimers everywhere and said RESIDENTS of … instead of just the name of the development.
They haven’t bothered me since about it..
Sandy3d is quite different than Sandee, plus their technology is what, 3d motion picture production, and your framework is a 3d technology for flash web vector media.
I like the idea that you should ask at universities about help.
Of the fastest emerging technologies, I think real-time 3d on the web has some of the biggest potential. 3d in flash now is like what 3d was 10 years ago in compiled game applications.
Good luck, and don’t put yourself on the line, if you feel over-pressured to changed the name, do it, think about yourself/family first, thanks for your contribution to the community.
I’m in France, and so far, I didn’t find any university supplying such service.
But I just noticed that I can get a lawyer help at he city hall. Let’s try that tomorrow
Thanks for the kind words
threat:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/31/deutsche-telekom-t-mobile-demands-engadget-mobile-discontinue/
response:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/01/painting-the-town-magenta/
Ehm, I am not a 100% sure, but the French pronunciation of Sandde would be something like:
“san” “da” “da” (as in “day” with no “y”) “i” (as in wish). San is short for “sans”, meaning: without. So it actually says: Without DDE (= Microsoft’s Dynamic Data Exchange).
Now, let’s hope for IMAX that Microsoft isn’t going make a point of them using DDE in a name….
B.T.W, 48 years ago, my parents gave me also a second name: Max. So, I Max, object to IMAX using this name without my prior, written consent…
Cheers and success with Sandy!
Little addtion to my reply: I wonder how MS would react if that would be “brought to their” attention…
People really have to much time on their hands.
and are also looking for anything to bother other.
This is truly ridiculous.
Do not do anything to see how far this stupidity can go.
Salut,
en france il faut une proximité géographique, et du domaine d’activité pour que ce soit valable.
il existe plein de nike chez nous…
la similitude est très très contestable..
l’organisme qui s’occupe des marques et logo est l’inpi, et pas une autre.
tu devrait les contacter, et déposer ta marque
les brevets internationnaux coutent des fortunes colossales et sont extremement complexes a defendre,
il est peu probable qu’ils en soient détenteur, de plus il n’existe aucune liste exhaustive des pays du monde, ce qui veut dire que la paix peut passer par un changement d’hébergeur pour un pays non couvert au pire.
peut-être que la fsf ou d’autre pourrait t’être une aide apréciable à defaut d’un avocat gratuit sur la question, je pense que les problèmes de licenses et assimilés ne leur sont pas étranger..
sorry for french comment, i’ll translate here but..ehm..
in france you need geographic proximity and avtivities proximity for the problem be ‘real’
exists a lot of nike here..
the similitude is very very ambigous…
the organism who hold marks and logos is inpi and no other.
you should contact them and take your own mark
international patents cost very very many money and are difficult to treat.
chances are small they have one, and there is no list of world’s country, so a solution could be to move the server..
maybe fsf could help on the problem, they surely have similar ones.
kao, that’s the most funny stuff i’v heard this year!
This is absurd! It’s no wonder people hate lawyers. A number of companies have been receiving pointless “cease and desist” letters like this recently – “SparkFun” got one from the company that make “Sparc” servers (boo, hiss). Completely different thing, they don’t care, just some useless a-hole lawyer trying to justify his existence. Sorry to hear a noble effort like Sandy is suffering from the same pointless, idiotic BS!
Hi everyone,
just to say that’s there’s no more news since that letter. No answer from my emails, and total silence.
We can hope this will continue that way
Keep all the e-mails. If they take you to court it will prove that you’ve answered to them. Be polite
Just ignore it.
Tell them it’s not with assaulting a small open-source project they would get popular. Especially when the reasons are not valid.
Tardemark Sandy3D then Send them back a legal nastygram stating they have to stop using your Trademark.
Thanks to all your reactions.
I can hope this will continue that way
Haha! France!
Did you try glaring at them? Probably they will surrender their patent to you.
I like how the names aren’t even the same and they try some silliness. Unfortunately, I think they won by using you for some free publicity fort their nonsense.
On the bright side, lulz were had by all!
How did you go with this?
I am also in a similar situation at the moment, corporate giants trying to throw their weight around!
Shock, crazy, no comment. How did it go? Please tell us.
lol they’re funny. hahaha
From quebec city, speak french and english.
i think that IMAX is big enough to close their mouth and pay the bill of the confusion(if any) that could occur because of the similar names and you dont. So i think they should back off.
i go at IMAX cinema(that could change!), never heard of SANDDE.
French patent? french web hosting? You could change to US(or any other country) host. if they have a judge or something that says that flashsandy.org must go down, they will have to work more if your site is not hosted in france(i think so). If same domain name everyone will find you anyway.
if you must change name, dont drop Sandy! Just make clear that it is Sandy3d.
sandy and sandde is more similar than Sandy3d anyway. i can’t imagine that someone can prononce Sandde the same way as Sandy3d.
if you must change web site name you should get http://www.sandy3d.org, seems available.
with that name, can adobe make you problem? i dont think so.
or something like http://www.Sandy3dengineforflash.org to piss off adobe.
if you change web site name people(well most of them) will find you anyway with google.
if someone in the community make a petition to say that IMAX should change his name not you, stating if they are using IMAX products and if they are willing to boycott that could make them shut up. i think that money has more power than laws in a case like that. i think that warnings should always come before boycott.
even if you think that you think you dont have enough users, i think you could get the whole open-source community behind you.
Someone(again not you) could make some kind of logo saying make a statement related to this case and asked people to put on their website.
david vs goliath? ok you are david and imax is goliath but the david didnt have super mega cell with social media instant messaging system that could make his countless friends gather behind him in minutes…
Tell them simply to FUCK OFF! Greedy bustards !
Hi Guys,
even though I totally agree to all voices, demanding to say “fuck you” to these iMax people, I have to advise that it’s not to be taken too lightly. International trademark-law is full of pitfals and finally the judge will give you a sentence (not your right!).
Common sense is not helpful with laws.
The arguments given are mostly correct. But please ask a (specialized) lawyer, if iMax does not step back. Any costs would well be covered from the community (I hope).
You may ask for 10 USD from me
Fight for your right. But fight right.
Bye
Joey
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Change the name of this project to “IMAX Corp. can go fuck themselves” and sell T-Shirts.